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Post by Rev. Jim Cunningham on Nov 19, 2008 1:28:01 GMT -5
From: georgiaguy (Original Message) Sent: 12/23/2002 2:31 AM
Ok this it not ment to be hateful at all but i think there is a major flaw in this theory. I am not saying this because of my opinion on homosexuality, i am just thought it was important. My point is that the fact of whether there are gay sheep or not does not matter (I am not saying there are not gay sheep). What i am saying is didnt God create man to be higher than the animals? If you believe that then you have to discount the gay sheep as evidence of homosexuality begin natural for man because just because an animal does it doesnt me we should do it. I mean there are some animals that kill there own young and that is definatly something we should not do. This is just something to think about. A brother in Christ
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Post by Rev. Jim Cunningham on Nov 19, 2008 1:28:17 GMT -5
From: neilinphilly Sent: 12/23/2002 9:23 AM
Hey Georgiaguy,
Good point! I accept the fact that my homosexuality is a result of my fallen nature. It's not God's best for us. Since he created marriage between man and woman, and the two have the power to create life, another human being, which is a miracle. That child would be conceived with the ultimate purpose to know and love God and enjoy Him forever. What would be the eternal purpose of God creating man or an animal with a homosexual orientation? Where does God tell us He created someone or an animal gay?
NeilInPhilly
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Post by Rev. Jim Cunningham on Nov 19, 2008 1:28:31 GMT -5
From: JayDWhite Sent: 12/23/2002 9:58 AM
GeorgiaGuy:
Far from taking your response as hateful, I see your post as an honest,
level-headed, one.
What we have here is a problem of separating the various arguments
against homosexuality, actually all non-hetersexualities. Let me address
the issue of whether man was created at a "higher order".
Although God placed man with dominion over the rest of animal kind, I do
not see that as a "higher order". But even if this was not the case there
is the issue of "naturalness".
Many Christians hold the belief that man is not an animal. This may
help bolster their egos but even the Bible speaks to man's "animal nature".
For the longest time one of the major arguments agains non-heterosexuality
was that "only man exhibits this 'behavior'". This is claerly not the case.
Not only do sheep exhibit this 'behavior' but it has been found in, so
far, over 450 species of animals. So is non-heterosexuality "natural",
meaning does it occur in nature? The answer is obviously yes.
And to further damage the anti-non-hetersexuality agruments one can not
conceivably argue that the animials "choose" to be non-heterosexual. After
all "choice" requires intelligence. SO for the "lower" animals
non-heterosexuality is not a choice, but an inherent characteristic of the
animal. This, then, lead credence to the idea that it is also not a
"choice" for man.
But wait! Should man base his sexual ethics on animals? No! But that
is not what is occuring. Man bases his sexual behavior on both what is
"natural" for him and, through his intelligence, what is safe. Man can
mediate his behavior but his inclinations can not be changed. He is as he
was created. If that means that he is a non-heterosexual he is a
non-heterosexual.
Ultimately, what this all boils down to is: Each of us must follow the
path God, and not man, has set for us.
Jay
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Post by Rev. Jim Cunningham on Nov 19, 2008 1:28:48 GMT -5
From: JayDWhite Sent: 12/23/2002 10:04 AM
NeilInPhilly:
I highly disagree that homosexuality is a result of "man's fallen
nature" because that still strongly implies a "choice". We may have a
"choice" in how we may express or sexual orientation but we have no choice
in whcih one we have.
What is God telling us when he creates gay sheep, or any gay animals?
That it is part and parcel of nature, and that it fulfills a need. Can I
identify that need? Do I have the whole of God's Plan laid out before me
and do I understand it? No. It surprises me that many Christians claim
that you must "Have Faith" but turn around and argue that "We must be able
to understasnd the whole of God's Plan". I am sorry, Neil, but there are
things that, despire uncomfort, we must accept. Non-heterosexuality seems
to be one of those.
Jay
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Post by Rev. Jim Cunningham on Nov 19, 2008 1:29:12 GMT -5
From: MichaelB Sent: 12/23/2002 11:25 AM
Thanks Jay,
Very well stated...we are what we are because God made us that way. We
take the gifts we're given and use them to His glory alone. The only
choices involve how we react and respond to what God has given us.
Blessings,
Michael
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Post by Rev. Jim Cunningham on Nov 19, 2008 1:29:34 GMT -5
From: neilinphilly Sent: 12/24/2002 11:25 AM
Jay,
So you're saying that if Adam and Eve never sinned, that you have indisputable evidence that homosexuality would still exist in a perfect world? Isn't everything we do as Christians supposed to emulate God's will? E.g. the marriage of man and woman represents the Jesus as the bridegroom and the church as the bride.
NeilInPhilly
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Post by Rev. Jim Cunningham on Nov 19, 2008 1:29:56 GMT -5
From: MichaelB Sent: 12/24/2002 4:40 PM
E.g. the marriage of man and woman represents the Jesus as the bridegroom
and the church as the bride. NeilInPhilly
Neil,
I think we could have this same discussion about sin and the fallen nature
of humankind and not even mention sexual orientation. The marriage
symbolism in scripture does use the images of Jesus and the Church as bride
and groom as it was a popular image for people (still is, in fact)...that
doesn't suggest that the church is female in nature, though.
Sin represents those things we chose to do which separate us from God. In
His perfect holiness he created all of humankind and through Jesus Christ
we have a means to righteousness and holiness before a perfect and holy
God.
Homosexuality did not occur becasue Adama and Eve sinned. It occurred
because God chose to create some people that way...similarly when the
disciples asked Jesus if the man was lame becasue of of his own sin or that
of his parents, Jesus told them that it wasn't because of sin, but as a
meant to give glory to God. And that is what we should do as well..take
what we are, what we've been given, and use it to the glory of God, our
Savior.
Enough preaching! Have a wonderful Christmas.
Be blessed,
Michael
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Post by Rev. Jim Cunningham on Nov 19, 2008 1:30:07 GMT -5
From: JayDWhite Sent: 12/24/2002 11:03 PM
NielInPhilly:
First, let me address your anger. Most of that anger is still directed
to yourself. I do not know at what stage you are in your recovery from
biblical abuse but it does appear that you have not passed down that path
for long. Eventually you'll reach a stage where this anger will be no more.
I can only hope that it will be soon.
But to answer your demand for proof, I'll state that yes I have
indisputable proof. If Adam and Eve never sinned then the animal kindom
would still be as it is today. The sins of man corrupt man not animal.
Animals have not been "touched" by any sins of man. So as a counter demand,
prove that animals have been "corrupted" by the sins of Adam and Eve.
Everything we do is suppored to emulate God's Will. The problem is in
determining what God's Will is. We have a glimpse of that Will in the Bible
but only a glimpse. Even with that the understanding of what God desires is
not clear. To agrue that it is clear flies in the face of global evidence,
i.e. thousands of demoninations of Christianity.
I seek only to understand but anger only hides truth..
Peace and God's Love
Jay
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Post by Rev. Jim Cunningham on Nov 19, 2008 1:30:22 GMT -5
From: Manager Rev. Jim Sent: 12/25/2002 7:52 AM
If Adam and Eve hadn't sinned, there wouldn't be any children in the first place. It was not until after they sinned and were banned from Eden that they had their first child. God permitted many people to have several wives - even going so far as to actually giving us laws pertaining to having multiple spouses - so you cannot use the Adam & Eve model as the model for what is Biblically permitted for a romantic union. Just because something did not exist in Eden does not mean that it is sinful OUTSIDE of Eden. Meat could not be eaten in Eden, but now it is completely BIBLICALLY lawful to eat meat. Nudity was legal in Eden, yet it is not so now.
Also, firstly, while it IS true that the male/female union represents Christ and the Church, that has no bearing on same sex unions anymore than it would have a bearing on persons who remain celibate their entire lives, else we would all be commanded to marry. Secondly, the representation of marriage to Christ and the Church is only ONE of the meanings to a marriage - and in fact it is not the REASON for marriage. We are flatly told that marriage is strictly for intimate companionship.
There is an article on this very subject ("Gays & Marriage") at the main group site, which explains why Adam and Eve CANNOT be considered the Biblical "model" for marriage. I would encourage you to stop by and read it.
In Jesus, Manager Rev. Jim
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Post by Rev. Jim Cunningham on Nov 19, 2008 1:31:09 GMT -5
From: exgay Sent: 12/29/2002 12:21 AM
first let me say that these arguments are well thought out and very intelligent, but i have to agree with neil.
regarding the lame man that Jesus healed the glory He refers to is the glory that was given to God the Father as a result of his being healed. mankind was created higher than animal scripture states that God breathed in adams nostrils and he became a living soul, animals do not have such a distinction they are created to serve man . Secondly as far as man eating animals after the fall was the result of God giving his people permission to do so, next as far as adam and eve not having children in the garden is irrelevent to sin, God gave them to each other so whether or not they had children in or out of the garden it would not have been sin. We live in a fallen world and sin has corrupted everything in it including animals and there nature
man is and never was meant for homosexuality we who have been deceived by a lie straight from the pit of hell. When we are born again we are given the righteousness of Christ and the mind of Christ and Jesus was not homosexual. Scripture is very clear homosexuality is a sin just like any other, we walk by faith we are not to presume to know the will of the Father for our lives only as the holy spirit reveals it to us. To discount faith in such a fashion as one reply did is just the same as non belief to begin with, scripture is very clear in that without faith it is impossible to please God. We are saved by grace and that we who have been given this cross to bear can walk upright before God . There are many of us who have been changed and healed through the awesome power of god's holy spirit who can testify that it is possible to change.
I belong to a wonderful group of christian brothers that i meant through the living waters program in my area if any one is interested it is on the internet. To put God in a box and say something is not possible for Him is misleading we can change. The healing of homsexuality is to the glory of God our Father. God wants more than anything our obedience to the call and plan He has for our lives. He has never told us we must live perfectly, but to perservere to keep praying and running to him when we fall into this sin or any sin no matter what it is. We will be tempted and we may fall but He is waiting right there to pick us up if we ask Him to forgive us and to move us forward.
I am praying that this will be of help to someone who feels hopeless because God has such a big heart for homosexuals not our behavior and there are churches out there that are willing and ready to embrace you if you want to change you just need to find the right one. The church has hurt a lot of homosexuals out there but there is hope and healing within the body of christ.
God bless
Harold
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Post by Rev. Jim Cunningham on Nov 19, 2008 1:31:18 GMT -5
From: Manager Rev. Jim Sent: 12/30/2002 4:14 PM
EXGAY SAID:
"man is and never was meant for homosexuality"
Sorry, but that is your personal opinion, unsupported by Scripture.
Manager, Rev. Jim - Gay Christian Survival Group.
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Post by Rev. Jim Cunningham on Nov 19, 2008 1:31:41 GMT -5
From: sklairgo Sent: 3/23/2003 2:38 PM
I just want to say that when I was about 15 yrs. old I was told that being gay was a sin because I had a cousin who at that time came out of the closet. The day I found out it was a sin I was involved with a guy. At that point I started to feel guilty and that I would go to hell for being gay. I say at that point because before that day my conscious was clean. I did not feel condemned (which is often referred to as conviction) before that. Yet, if I did other things that were "wrong" my conscious would convict me. The Bible says if our conscious condemns us God is greater and knows all things. I feel that my condemnation came upon me imposed by people and not God. So, for years I lived with that guilt.
I became born again in 1980. God never told me at that time that my being gay was sinful. My conviction came from other christians. I honestly tried very hard to be "str8." Some may say I didn't try hard enough. Untrue! I came to the conclusion that what I was doing was pleasing everyone else who had NO CLUE whatsoever what it is like to be attracted to someone of the same sex. I would stand back and look at the str8 christians getting married, being applauded for it and then go on and live happy lives, while I was told to wait for God to send me the right mate, keep my mind focused on wanting to marry a woman, etc. All the while I was miserable. I wondered how come I was being told to not be who I was born to be when no one was telling the str8 people to stop being str8? The attraction I felt for men never left and that has been over 20 years ago. I have prayed, fasted, had hands laid on me, attended crusades, etc. and the desire still remains. I had a friend who was "delivered" from homosexuality, got married had two kids and was seemingly having a good life. Then one day he got involved with another guy and just couldn't live the "str8" life any longer. The church turned their back on him because he had fallen into sin. I too tried dating girls. No matter how much I tried I just couldn't get into it emotionally. I felt like something was missing. When I realized I felt complete only when I'm with a guy I knew then that this was my God given orientation and I can't change it. A woman did not provide for me what a man could. Whatever was "missing" when I was dating girls was not evident when I was with a guy. I find it hard to believe now after all these years that the desire I feel for another man is sin. I did not put it there. I feel it is a gift from God and I refuse to let str8 christians put me in a box so they will be pleased with me. I don't care if they are pleased or not, just like I don't care if they are str8 or not.
On the second point, I have read about the sheep who were of the same sex and attracted only to each other. It is true that homosexuality is rampant in the animal kingdom. Read about the bonobos apes. They engage in all sorts of sexual acts. Are they considered immoral? It is a natural thing for them. One could say innate in them. How come we aren't trying to deliver these animals from their sinful nature? We could say that they did not sin. True, but that would make it innate in some of them to be with the same sex. All I'm saying is there are too many people who are and have been gay for it to be demonic or a sin.
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Post by Rev. Jim Cunningham on Nov 19, 2008 1:32:04 GMT -5
From: jan Sent: 9/14/2003 11:51 AM I read with interest and empathy all the comments re this topic....all I can say is, there r more important issues in a person"s life (gay or straight) than their God given sexuallity.Not that realization of who we are is not important, but I know for myself, that I wasted alot of years agonizing over this. 2 yrs ago, the Spirit wispered wisdom.Lesbianism had not seperated me from God. It was not to blame for my leaving the church, for giving up my career singing on the Revival circuit, it had not allianated me from christian friends, and it was not the source of my discouragement with Bible study/prayer.Fear of rejection (perfect love casts out fear),and lies perpretrated by uninformed christians...actually, my BELIEVING the lies,obsession of being unworthy because of my "sinful nature"......these seperated me from God...AND kept me from looking at/embraceing the weightier issues of the christian life, like walking in love (faith WORKS by love, and without faith it is impossible to please Him). forgiveness, Truth, peace (be anxious for nothing, but caste ALL your cares on Him, for He cares for u). I was stynied in my christian walk/relationship with God because of my fear (based on misinformation) re homosexuality. So, here's a thought: if the devil could not discourage belief in Christ through abuse, health isuues, $ issues, just "life"...through it all Christ kept me and I believed...but he COULD cause me to doubt (and almost let go) because of the gay issue...what does THAT tell you? Brothers and sisters in Christ...God loves you...He is love, you ARE accepted, He makes no mistakes in His creative order, trust Him.....then move on to who you were created to be:loving, peaceful, powerful children of God spreading His light/love in a very dark world. Blessings...j p.s. what does <o:p></o:p> mean?  !!!!! |
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Post by Rev. Jim Cunningham on Nov 19, 2008 1:32:18 GMT -5
From: JayDWhite Sent: 9/14/2003 3:23 PM
Jan:
You have found the truth! Yes, it is not the Lord that has rejected you
but the uninformed Christian Brothers ans Sisters. Deceit comes not from
the Lord.
The code you are refering to is that which Word "embeds" in the text and
becomes visible when you cut from Wrod and past into a post box. If it
annoys you, assuming yu do the cut and past, then after the past operation
check the "HTML" box in the lower left hand area of the post box and delete
them.
Jay
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Post by Rev. Jim Cunningham on Nov 19, 2008 1:32:28 GMT -5
From: jan Sent: 9/15/2003 9:57 AM
Thanx for the info, Jay.....keep spreading the Truth/Love:-D...blessings...j
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!!!!!