Homosexuality not natural

[Rev. Jim Cunningham]

From: nzdavid (Original Message) Sent: 3/25/2003 7:01 AM
Hi,


Thought the title might get you in!


I am in my late 30's. I have been gay all my life as far as I remember and I could give you the in and outs of my lifestory. Much the same as many of you and different in most ways too. I have been involved in Gay Politics, marches etc and I have been to prison for having sex with a 15 year old.


I have been forced to seriously look at my life. My parents have since I left home been involved in serious missionary work in a medical framework in asian countries. I have a sibling who is a priest (moderate liberal) and most of my family are christians. Fundamental if anything.


For some time now I have become increasingly aware of the idea of a 'right life' (perhaps too cliched) but I have thought it possible to live this life outside the influence of a God who I knew not at all and had no real chance of believing in.


However this is a state which I can not live with forever. I see the young people of our world and I see a huge level of disenfranchisement with society, no sense of identity, no sense of belonging, lost; and clinging to anything which gives a sense of self worth.


I see this in myself.

I took to homosexuality with fervor. It gave me a sense of identity and that made me feel that I might be okay. So when it has been mentioned I have always rejected stereotypes and particularly that I might fit into one. However I can now admit that I did have a distant father. He may well have loved me, we have a better relationship now, but he was very distant when I was a boy.


My Mother was very dominant and physically abused me as well as smothering me in her love. Two stereotypical things about Gay peoples parents. Of course there are others who do not fit into these stereotypes.

Along with this is the firm belief that men and women are made physically to fit together for the purposes of procreation. Not men and men or women and women. I know that there are ways of arguing around this. I have read. I have, myself argued. However I really don't think we can get away from the fact that men and women are made for each other.

Therefore there are a few strong things (and I have just given you the obvious ones) that suggest that my homosexuality may not be 'natural'. If I were a well adjusted person from a well organised and loving family, would I be gay? How come I also have a sister who is gay? No, she is not my biological sister and yet her relationship with our parents was the same as mine?<


So, anyway, I have at least I think, decided that my homosexuality is not necessarily mine. That doesn't mean I am going to race out and look for relationships with women! But it does mean I will not actively seek out sexual contact with men or pursue contact with men, specifically. In essence I want to follow in the footsteps of christ because irrespective of all the arguments, I think that if I could be like him I could have peace.


I think that there is in all of us a proclivity to be close to our brothers and sisters and I think that sometimes that love can cross boundaries. Whether these are natural or unnatural.. I don't know. I only know that it has never been entirely satisfactory for me. I have never been sexually attracted to women, in fact I find women scary.

So I will just try to make sex or partners or relationships a thing that remains low on the list of priorities. I could never say I would not marry someone, because I might. But I could not marry anyone who was not my friend. .

And the 'right life'? Well, clearly abating any interest in sex is a positive thing (I think society is far too interested in sex). And that part of me that knows what is right and wrong, that part of me which I think is the holy spirit; is stronger, and my life goes better, when I follow that knowledge from something beyond me.

I love Jesus Christ. I wish I could be like him and I wish he would come back.

However I am on the borderline of taking that step into faith. My feet straddle the two camps. Why should the idea that we created god not be at least seriously asked?How do I know Jesus was really Gods son? How do I know there is a God or what God is? How could any God allow such devastation to occur? Why, if we are his army, do we not get more resources? Why is he taking so long to pop back for a visit? Couldn't he just come down for a break?

So I am a christian in that I believe that jesus Christ existed etc but I am just not sure about the whole going to heaven thing etc. I also think that if one believes, one believes. It can not be halfhearted. And if the bible is just a sort of history book/guide fine, but if it is a holy book, inspired or actually copied from the mind of God why should we be allowed to change it? If it says a certain thing then does it mean it, or is there mitigation?

I think we have to follow the book. If we change it, well we might as well be any religon. If we can change the nature of God.

I'll leave it for there for now. Don't think this is easy. It is SO hard to do. It seems however the 'right thing'.



David

[Rev. Jim Cunningham]

From: Jeffrey Sent: 3/25/2003 9:36 AM
Thank you for expressing your feelings towards this matter. However, I just want you to know that I am 28 and came from a very loving family. I still have a great relationship with my mother and father and they are truly wonderful parents. When things were down they were there, when things were up they were there too, when I was in the middle they were also there. I was truly blessed to have such wonderful parents. Don't get me wrong, there were times where it wasn't so great. Like when I came out to them. It was difficult for them being of the Southern Baptist faith but after a few years they became more then my parents, they became someone that I could believe in and always know that they will be there for me. Through all the scares in my life they have been there. The reason why I want you to know this is that you won't think that something went wrong with your family and that is why you are gay. You are gay because it is in your heart and why would God put love in your heart if God just wanted you to close off love? God wouldn't do that to us! As for the Bible, we have to remember that what we read inside has been translated and translated and translated. There were also things that were put in the Bible to fit their best interests. I am not saying that there isn't any good in the Bible because there is. Read the words of Christ. I think that alot of the Bible has significant meaning in my life but people have been swayed into believing in the Bible rather than God. There are words of God in the Bible but for the most part other prophets have wrote the Bible. Also, was isn't to say that there isn't prophets that God has chosen to rewrite the Bible or to write other sections of the Bible. If the prophets could be inspired to write the Bible then others from this time could be inspired to do the same.

I do agree with you that people now a days focus on sex rather then focusing in on the person. That is partially the reason for broken relationships and unhappy homes. We do need to get out of the sex mind and thinking about our lives and find someone that you are going to spend the rest of your life with. Sex is something to be shared with two people that love each other. At least that is my feelings about that. I also want to thank you for sharing that you had been in prison for having sex with a 15 year old. I cannot relate to what was going through your mind or why you did it or what kind of bad things happened to you after the fact. However, I must thank you for sharing that and it looks like you have recovered from that.

Well, take care and I hope that I have helped you accept that it isn't something wrong with you or you weren't a creation of your parents but a creation of God. God love you even though you are white, black, male, female, gay, straight, healthy or not healthy, etc...

Your brother in Chist,

Jeffrey

[Rev. Jim Cunningham]

From: Manager Rev. Jim Sent: 3/25/2003 10:12 AM
GROUP, this is an open letter. Though it is addressed to David, it is for you all



Brother NZDavid ,

Welcome to the group.

I read your post very careful, and though I'm not quite sure what your final point was, you did touch on some very important individual points.

First I should say that I not sure whether you are saying that you are just confused about the Lord and about your sexual identity (being a homosexual) or that your are basically aiming for abandoning your homosexual identity.

I won't hand you the same propaganda used by the mainstream gay community (which is hedonistic and anti-christ), but I would like to confront some of the issues you raised.

Yes, it is TRUE that males and females "fit" together. Absolutely no doubt about that what so ever. If they did not, they would not be human, of course. Bear in mind that just because your thumb "fits" comfortably into your mouth doesn't mean you may be particularly interested in inserting that body part into that orafice. You see, it is ALSO TRUE that males and males & females and females fit together quite well, both physically and emotionally. In fact, VERY MUCH so. If they did not, they would not be human. This is the very reason why both the male and the female are crafted in, and come from, the exact same source, as opposed to males coming from one and females coming from another. We all know quite well that the only thing that makes the difference between a male human and a female human is whether there is that shot of testosterone to the fetus. This is vitally important because (and yes I am simplifying this) it shows that a human is a human, regardless of what is between its legs. A human is always compatable with another human, whether they be of different or the same sex or race. What makes the difference when it comes to WHICH human you choose depends on your physical/mental ATTRACTION.

The interesting thing about human attraction is that no two humans are alike, and no two humans have particular attractions for the same reason. So many people want to put gays in a cookie cutter mold and say "THIS is why people are gay.....". Want to know the truth? Want to know WHY people are gay? Look careful at this list of reasons:

1) Your mental make up, from conception in the womb, is 100% tuned to be attracted to members of the same sex, and you will always be attracted only to members of the same sex just as you may be totally attracted to chocolate. You can never stop liking it (issues of abuse aside). Heterosexual or homosexual, everyone comes into their sexual identity at different times, and depending on how much the following "causes" had on your young life, who knows when you might bloom - at 6, 16, or 60.

2) You were molested/seduced by a member of the opposite sex during a developmental stage of, or a weak moment in, your life, and
a) it permanently corrupted your mind against the opposite sex causing you to go to the same sex as the only option left, or,
b) it permanently established in your mind that the opposite sex is not for you, as when you try a food for the first time and discover you hate it, or,
c) it was so vile to you because you were taken advantage of during a powerless state of mind that you despise the opposite sex ever after, or
d) an intensive combination of all three, or more.

3) You were molested/seduced by a member of the same sex during a developmental stage of, or a weak moment in, your life, and
a) it made you feel secure because an intimate male figure touches that inner part of you that needs a loving fatherly figure, or
b) it corrupted your mind in favor of sex with other males because a natural barrier has been destroyed in your mind that would have otherwise never have been breeched by yourself, or,
c) it was such a wonderful experience that you continue to seek out the experience again as often as possible, or,
d) it registered in your mind that this must be the way it is sex is done, or,
e) it registered in your mind this is how to get attention and affection from males, or,
f) it merely confirmed in your heart that you are naturally gay (whether the molestation was intrusive or consenting not withstanding), or,
g) a complex combination of these plus other factors.

4) You were horribly mentally/physically/sexually assaulted or otherwise abused and emotionally damaged by a member of the opposite sex, which caused either a fear or a hatred or a loathing or a lack of interest toward physical or emotional intimacy with the opposite sex, forcing you to turn to the same sex because:
a) you're left with no other choice, or,
b) your wounded heart needed the consolation of like-minded persons (specifically members of the same-sex because they generally think alike), and that consolation turned to attraction because it it was an emotionally healing interaction and you want to continue that interaction in a more deeper and physical way, or,
c) you felt emotionally protected and safe with other males, making you desire to delve deeper into that feeling, or,
d) a complex combination of all of the above with or without other factors.

5) Your same-sex parent (to your mind) was
a) abusively dominant, or overly masculine/feminine, which caused you to be fearful of your own masculinity/femininty, in turn causing a gap in your personal identity and drives you to need that balance masculinity/femininity from another person of the same sex.
b) distant and cold, or not always present, or never present, and the lack of approprate natural physical contact (hugs, kisses, touching) from that parent remains as an iner void still needing to be filled, which converts to sexuality as you mature (which is also often the cause of sexual attraction toward a parent of the same sex), or,
c) more or overly affectionate and doting than the parent of the opposite sex, which made you desire this from members of the same sex, or,
d) a complex combination of all of the above and other factors.

6) Your opposite-sex parent (to your mind) was
a) abusively or agressively dominant, or overly feminine/masculine, or distant and cold, or not always present, or never present, with a great void OR over abundance of any form of natural affection, which caused you to be fearful or hateful to, or repulsed by, the opposite sex because you connect that parent with members of that parent's sex.

7) You develop an unusually close, emotional bond with a member of the same sex due to a connection you feel for each other , which turns to a form of love that is so intense that it drops your guard or pushes aside all limits and taboos, and you seek to consumate that bond (whether your conscience is telling you that it is right or wrong); and if it cannot be fulfilled by the object of your heart's desire, you will be crushed and seek it vicariously with others, or you will act out those desire vicariously with others to avoid possibly destroying the friendship.

8) It is genetic.

9) It is a system-wide disability/birth defect in various parts of the brain that controls your emotions, your sex drive, AND your attractions.

10) Brainwashing.

11) You woke up one day and said, "Gee, I think I'll be homosexual today".

12) Fill in the blank.


Yup, these and many many more, or a compination of any of these, are some of the reasons why gay people are gay. No two people are alike so no two people will have the same story. Therefore you canot presume that just because you believe you've come to terms with the "cause" of YOUR homosexuality does not mean that it is the same cause for all homosexuals. Note something very VERY important here. In reverse, all of these "causes" listed above are ALSO the causes of heterosexuality!

For me, I fall in the first slot (#1, above). I have always been homosexual (and knew it as young as four years old).

Now, of course, how you behave is an entirely other matter. NO personal identity (whether gay or straight) is a liscence to violate the Lord's laws on fornication and adultery, which is ital that gay Christians adhere to the Word of God and remain abstinant until a life partner is chosen (and then STAY in that partnership).

This letter is already too long, so I'll wrap it up. David, just let the Lord guide you. Don't try to BE anything. Whatever the Lord expects you to be, He will lead you into it in His timing as you walk obediently in Him. God bless you,
Rev. Jim manager Gay Christian Survival Group

[Rev. Jim Cunningham]

From: phil Sent: 6/16/2003 4:04 AM
Dear Jim,
I agree with one statement you made. Your message was too long. The reason a person is gay, is short and sweet- SIN. That's the reason. It's in the BIBLE. So if you want to discuss this, pick up the Bible and really read it. I'm a person who choose to be gay. I wanted to go against the way God planned for me. Yes I sinned. I disobied God's law that states it's a sin for a man to lay with a man. Of course I had a number of reasons for why I did it. But in my heart I wanted to do it. I've heard all the reason why. I had to be honest with myself and say I really like to sin. Sin brings fun and excitement. That's why people sin every day. But I have to admit that the pleasure of sin are but for a season. See when your all by yourself and the mask is off, and your friends are gone. It's just you and the mirrior and you look and see what you have created from the life of sin, when your friends are dead, or in jail, when you're no happier then when you started out, it's time to turn and say, Lord, I've made a mees out of the life you gave me. God forgive me for the stuff I've done wrong. Forgive me, Lord for the excuses I've made to disobey your word. Jesus I want you to come into my heart and save me. Save from myself. Save me from hell. Save me from people's oppion of me. Jesus wash me clean in your blood. Forgive me.
This is what I did and God has given me and so many others a new life. New! Not new reason to continue in sin, but a new life where sin doesn't need to be. I became a new person in Christ Jesus. God can and will do it for anyone who ask him to. People are hurting. Sin hurts. It hurts all involved. But Jesus is the healer of the wounds of sin. I'm not going to tell you it's easy. I don't know how God does it. But God can change lives if he is allowed to. He's done it for people in the Bible and He's done it for me. Sin distroys. Sin kills. If you continue to tell people sin is ok, you're leading people to a life of misery. Please get hold of the Bible and read it. I read that piece on David and Jonthan. I was so shocked that any one could think that they were lovers.
But to each his own. I know God's word is true. And God doesn't contradict Himself. Men do. If God distroyed Sodom and Gomorrah in Genesis, and in Romans 1:21-32 gave people over to a reprobate mind, then in no way could God have blessed David and Jonathan as he did if they were living in sin. Even David when he slept with Bathsheba God spoke agains it. But the paper didn't say that God spoke against it. Strange.
I think Jesus is coming real soon and it's time to get ready.

[Rev. Jim Cunningham]

From: Manager Rev. Jim Sent: 6/16/2003 8:04 AM
Hi Phil,

Thank you for your input, even though I totally disagree with you. If you believe that being homosexual is a sin, that is your choice. However, that is not what the Scriptures tell us, so therefore your choice to believe that identity is sinful is between you and the Lord. A true homosexual KNOWS within himself that he is a true homosexual and that it is not sinful. Perhaps you are one of the people which the Scriptures refer to - a man (heterosexual) who has left the woman for a man and you are now realizing the error of your ways and are feeling the guilt of that sin. I do not know. I do not know anything about you. Nevertheless, you should know that, if you truly are homosexual, ceasing to have sex with males and entering into a heterosexual union does not make you heterosexual, any more than a left handed person who learns to write with his right hand has become a right handed person. You can put in blue contact lenses to cover your brown eyes, yet your eyes remain brown, even if you've convinced everyone else that they are something that they are not. It is people like you that absolutely amaze me, when you can stick to your unproven doctrinal stand in order to make sweeping condemnations. You obviously did not read my section on Sodom and Gomorah (which you mentioned in your reply), else you would have seen that there is virtually no evidence whatsoever to support the theory that they were destroyed for homosexuality. You've simply accepted the church's biased interpretation of the event, and, having been instilled with fear (which was exactly their goal), you now propagate their lie. You also presume that "being gay" and "fornicating" are one and the same. One does not have to be sexually active to be gay, any more than a heterosexual has to be sexually active to be straight. WHO YOU ARE and WHAT YOU DO WITH YOUR PENIS are two totally different things. But none of that is either here nor there. Gay Christian Survival Group is here for those who are fed up with the church's tired anti-gay stance; a stance which you apparently support. It is not here for the anti-gay, as I made perfectly clear on the home page of this group. I wish you all the best in your attempt to play heterosexual, and I pray the Lord to bring healing to your life when you can no longer continue the charade.

In Jesus the only wise Judge,
Rev. Jim

[Rev. Jim Cunningham]

From: Manager Rev. Jim Sent: 6/16/2003 8:28 AM
Regarding your comment about David and Bathsheba...

I have no idea what you mean by "the paper". What paper are you refering to? The Bible most definitely says that God rebuked and severely punished David for his involvement with Bathsheba. However, David's marriage with Jonathan was not rebuked nor punished by the Lord. You are going under the assumption that, because God said nothing about their union, that therefore there was no union. Sorry. You have it backwards. Their union was lawful, therefore there was nothing to condemn them for. I have thoroughly proven that they most certainly were involved in a romantic and sexual union - spoken by the mouth of King Saul himsef - and that that union was a biblically lawful covenant of marriage. You do not have to believe the hard evidence. However, your disbelief does not alter fact. It is not a matter of personal interpretation. When a stop-sign says STOP, there is no other interpretation then that you must STOP. When the Bible clearly defines a married relationship between David and Jonathan, there is no other interpretation than exactly what it says. You can, however, invent a new doctrine due to your unbelief. But I would warn you that altering the Scriptures in such a way is blasphemy and punishable by having your name removed from the Book of Life (Revelation 22:17-19).

In Jesus,
Rev. Jim

[Rev. Jim Cunningham]

From: phil Sent: 6/16/2003 9:20 AM
Jim,
First thing I never mention "church" so where you get
church stance is beyond me. I refer to the Bible and
the Bible does talk about homosexuality and it's not
good. I don't know which Bible your reading but God's
word is what I'm going by. Now if you can show me
where the Bible says it's ok for two men to have sex,
I'll admit my mistake. But there isn't anywhere in the
Bible. Again I'm not talking church doctrine, I'm
asking for in the Bible. It's not there.
The next thing what you do with your body parts as
effects on others if you choose to believe it don't so
be it. But it does. So what one does or doesn't do
with thier penis, does affect more than yourself.
People bring AIDS in as the reason to stop having
homosexual relations. But AIDS was a man-made disease.
When it was first discovered it was not stopped and
alloew to be passed around. God didn't make it becose
of homosexuals. Man did. And when it came to the U.S.
it was only certain people dieing from and were either
older, or the unwanted so it wasn't a big deal that
they died from it. When the book to stop AIDS was
written it was band from coming into this country. The
book was written somewhere in the mid 1970- 1980. Rock
Hudson was not the first well known person to die from
it.
And you're right Sodom and Gomorrah was not distoyed
because it was a homosexual city/cities. It wasn't ten
rightous people in the whole town. But homoseuality
was one of the reason why it was distroyed. There were
many sins commited there.

[Rev. Jim Cunningham]

From: phil Sent: 6/16/2003 9:43 AM
What marriage between Jonathan and David? There was no
marriage. It was against Hebrew Law. When Jonathan
said to David, "thy love to me was wonderful passing
the love of a women." you're taking it in modern
terms. The love they had for each other was like the
love two brothers should have between them. It has
nothing to do with sex. It was the same love that
would make a younger brother when an older brother
died marry his dead brother wife and have children for
his dead brother. It was a strong love for two men to
have and God approved the love. But God never approved
homosexuality. Read Romans 1:26-28. Those are not
blessed people. You trying to say that Jonathan and
David were married. That's so very wrong. especially
when in the New Testment talks so much against it. God
doesn't chang people do.

[Rev. Jim Cunningham]

From: Luke Sent: 6/16/2003 6:50 PM
Hi, nzdavid thanks for your post.
In regards to the Bible, for me i think of 2nd Timothy 3:16 that says that all scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction for instruction in righteousness. Also in 2nd Peter he writes that they did not follow cunningly devised fables but were eyewitnesses of His majesty and that in chapter 1 :20-21 it says that what was written was not by the will of man but was the result of the Holy Spirit who caused them to write what they wrote.
If I accept this as correct then I cannot pick and choose what I think is true and what is not true. Because we are all different, we would all be interpreting this book according to what we each individually want to be true for oneself.

I love Jesus very much and I can clearly read that he is loved by you guys who have posted messages. For me, I believe that Jesus Christ is the way , and the truth, and the life... and that if we follow Him, He will make this all clear to us. He is God in human form so as it says in Isaiah 55 his thoughts are not our thoughts and his ways are not our ways, for as the heavens are far above the earth so are his thoughts and ways far above ours.

Jesus said that we should seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness and this should be thegoal of anyone who loves Jesus
Christ whether gay or not. He loves us so very much that He gave his life for us, who else would do that for any of us? Getting to know Him better through what is written and being with other Christians, is becoming more of a personal goal for me. It's not easy to put into words what I feel about His love for me and how he has helped me so far in my life.
I guess I just want to encourage all of us to press on to get to know Jesus Christ more and more and work on this relationship with Him, that's all.
Luke

[Rev. Jim Cunningham]

From: Manager Rev. Jim Sent: 6/17/2003 8:26 AM
Philip,

I did not say that you said anything about a church. I said that you are merely repeating the church's lies about homosexuality.

You ask me to show you where it says in the Bible that it is ok for two men to have sex. I have given heaps of proof at the Gay Christian Survival Group website. However, you continually assume that to be gay means "having sex". I am 100% homosexual. BUT, I have not entered into a covenant union with anyone, therefore I do not have sex. Sex between ANY two adult, non-blood-related, human beings is only permissable within a covenant, lifelong union. Heterosexuals and homosexuals are both bound to the Law which prohibits fornication. The gay community and the straight community are equally vile. There is no difference between them. CHRISTIAN straights and gays, however, are not part of those communities. We live by the Spirit of God, and the worldy gay and straight communities DO NOT. Have you no knowledge of what the Body of Christ is? Gay Christian Survival Group does not IN ANY WAY condone or support fornication, and I have made that perfectly clear on the site's main page. Sex outside of marriage is wickedness. HOWEVER, the mariage bed is SACRED, as Paul said, and therefore what happens in the marriage bed is lawful (so long as adultery is not being committed). There are no Biblical restrictions on sexual behavior between TWO MARRIED PERSONS, and there is NO BIBLICAL LAW which prohibits two male or two females from marrying. And, it is writen that where there is no law there is no sin.

It is apparent to me that you have not bothered to take the time to read all of the data at Gay Christian Survival Group, but rather, you have glanced over it and are now spewing out the same homophobic nazi reitoric used by the biased church. You continue to make comments to me about David and Jonathan, though I have already provided a rebuttal to your comments under the David & Jonathan topic at the Group site. I have given proof of their marriage. You have willingly chosen to ignore that proof. I cannot force you to stop being biblically ignorant. You must do that on your own. If you are not gay, or if you are anti-gay, or if you think that being gay is a sin, then I will have to ask you to leave this group. It is not for you. We have had your arguement rammed down our throats by thousands of lying, gay-bashing preachers, and it will not be permitted in Gay Christian Survival Group. You will NOT win your arguement here. We love you as a fellow Christian brother, but your point of view on this issue is not acceptable as biblically legitimate, and therefore it is not acceptable here. There are plenty of other groups where your hate-preaching is completely welcome.

In Jesus,
Pastor Jim