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Post by Rev. Jim Cunningham on Nov 19, 2008 2:21:11 GMT -5
From: aussiebuddy (Original Message) Sent: 10/12/2003 8:36 AM Im confused and was thinking.... if David was gay.. why did he lust after bathsheba?
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Post by Rev. Jim Cunningham on Nov 19, 2008 2:21:44 GMT -5
From: Manager Rev. Jim Sent: 10/13/2003 12:48 PM AussieBuddy, Your question about David and Bathsheba is a good and valid one. Unfortunately, the only information we have about David's life is what is recorded in Scripture. One of the issues that has baffled me to no end is, how can a gay man - regardless of peer/family/religious pressure - ever have sex with a woman? Although I didn't "come out of the closet" until adulthood, I have ALWAYS known that females where not sexually/romantically attractive to me and the very thought of having sex with a woman is so foreign to me, personally, that I could never do it - no matter how much I was presured into it. I never had the desire to experiment with something I wasn't remotely interested, either, especially if it turned me off. But this sort of thing happens all the time with other people, though I've never understood it. So we have no idea what the situation was with David. Two things we do know from the Scriptures: David and Jonathan had a romantic relationship with each other AND others; and the Bible tells us that ALL of David's "other halves" were gifts from God. No two people have the same mental make up, and I think that alot of the time we tend to want to shove everyone into a cookie cutter format. Maybe David was gay, maybe he was bisexual. Who knows? To be honest, I could care less about his sexual prowess. The important overall issue (at least the one presented in this group) is that, no matter what David's sexual orientation was, he did in fact have a romantic and sexual covenant union with Jonathan, which was not disapproved of by God, and which was such common knowledge that even the king knew about it. Times have changed, and so have people. A thousand years ago, there was no gay community. In fact, only in modern times have we had anything like a "gay community". For centuries the medical and psychiatric communities viewed homosexuality as a type of insanity, and homosexuals as worse than murderers. Throughout recorded history, gays were usually put to death when discovered. But then again, so were people who practiced medicine. Until recent times, a doctor and a witch were considered by most to be one and the same thing. In fact, practicing medicine was condemned by the Scriptures (the Greek word for "witchcraft" and "sorcery/sorcerer" in the New Testament is "Pharmakeus", from which comes the words "Pharmacy" and Pharmacist"). But today, no one would lump witches and doctors together because a pharmacist back then and a pharmacist today are no longer the same. I believe that it is, to some degree, the same with homosexuality. Much of the homosexuality which the Bible condemns refers to male temple prostitutes, which were prevelant throughout the Middle East, Egypt, Rome and Greece - i.e. all the land where the people of God dwelt. I hardly think that we can say that of the gay community today! While it is true that the gay community in general is disgustingly preoccupied with lust and fornication in general (try finding one gay news magazine that doesn't have excessively provacative ads!), yet the gay population of the world today is nothing like their homosexual counterparts of the ancient past; and just as with the medical profession, it is unfair to lump everyone together. The issue presented in Scriptures wasn't so much about whether David was bi or gay, but that he had relations with both sexes, and ON THAT POINT, neither were condemned. In Christ, Rev. Jim
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Post by Rev. Jim Cunningham on Nov 19, 2008 2:23:02 GMT -5
From: jesusseeker153 Sent: 11/13/2003 10:52 AM I am new to the group and cautious to reply to such a delicate question of King David's sexual orientation. After reading some of the responses I am now more confused by the question. Can someone tell me where in the Old Testament they find that the relationship between David and Johnathan was sexual? Knowing the scripture spoken of I find no support for this conclusion. 1Samuel makes clear that there is a bond of selflessness, a covenant between David and Johnathan. They love the other over themselves. This bond is the bond of brotherhood just as a Christian's bond is with Jesus Christ and each of us as Christian brothers. But there is never even implied a physical relationship to my knowledge. I love Jesus Christ with all my life and being. I am surrendered completely to his will but this loving bond does in no way imply I have or would even want a sexual relation with Jesus Christ. It is a much deeper and more mature love and bond which transcends physical intamcy. As gay and lesbian Christians we have to be careful not to read into scripture what is not there and we must be vigilant not to project our own desires and wants into the Word. I do not find any fault in a loving gay relationship but I do find fault in trying to "justify" such a relationship in scripture where it does not exist. May the peace of the Lord keep us all and may his wisdom grace our lives. In the love of Christ Jesus jesusseeker153
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Post by Rev. Jim Cunningham on Nov 19, 2008 2:23:27 GMT -5
From: Manager Rev. Jim Sent: 11/13/2003 1:21 PM Dear JesusSeeker, I really don't know how I could show any clearer from the Scriptures the romantic relationship between David and Jonathan without getting graphic. The very definition of the covenant they entered into with each other, as presented in Scripture, is romantic and sexual (1 Samuel 18:1-4). When Jonathan and David entered into the covenant with each other, King Saul immediately took David into the palace TO STAY, and offered his daughter to David as a SECOND SPOUSE in order to produce an heir (1 Samuel 18:2 and 18:21). King Saul stated that David and Jonathan's relationship was sexual beyond all question (1 Samuel 20:30). The parting of David and Jonathan was blatantly romantic (1 Samuel 20:41-42). David's love letter to Jonathan was blatantly romantic (2 Samuel 1:26). There is more romance here than in the story of Solomon & Sheba and Joseph & Mary! There is only two ways to view this story: 1) David & Jonathan were lovers, or 2) You do not wish to believe that David & Jonathan were lovers simply because you don't want it to be true and you refuse to see what the text says.
I find it interesting that no one has a problem with David having multiple wives, but if you say he had a relationship with Jonathan - whoa nelly!!!!!!
The problem, brother, is that you are still under the impression that being gay is a sin, which is why you cannot grasp the idea of David and Jonathan being married. But let the Bible speak for itself and you will see that they were indeed married. Bias places a vail over our eyes and prevents us from seeing truth. When the vail of bias is removed, we see clearly.
In Christ, Rev. Jim Cunningham
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